Little Rebellion Music

I have heard it said that it takes a village to raise a child. In the same way, it could be said that it takes a city to help an artist build a successful career. While it will be the artist’s name on the resulting album, a lot of people need to be working together to make it happen. The various facets of the industry, some things music fans are not always aware of, are the topic of this new Industry Insiders interview series. It will spotlight the different roles of the people behind the artists and will hopefully become a useful resource for aspiring musicians.

It is a reality these days that artists have to not just be aware of, but must actively understand every aspect of their careers. With so many avenues open to artists now for building a career, it is important to know the pros and cons of each. Should you seek a publishing deal, or a recording contract? Major label, indie label, or be an independent artist? If you want to send a single to radio, what happens next and who are the people who make it happen? What roles do managers and publicists have? What goes into producing a record? Who are the people who make the decisions about which songs artists record, and how can you get them to hear your songs? Some of these questions seem to have obvious answers but there is always a lot more to it than most people think.

The first interview is a look at the at the day-to-day operations of an independent record label in Nashville. Bigger Picture Group is unique in their set-up and operates according to a very modern, and very smart, business plan. CEO David Robkin explained the company’s history, daily workings, and approach to artist development and promotion.

UCN: When and how did Bigger Picture start?
David Robkin: The original company was formed around 2007 when Keith discovered Zac Brown. It was formed around that discovery, producing his record, and then Keith assembled a team of people, including Michael Powers and his promotion team, to start promoting it. They took him to Live Nation which at the time had a label called Live Nation Artists, who had Madonna and Jay-Z. That deal launched ‘Chicken Fried,’ but about six months into it, Live Nation decided they didn’t want to be in the record business after all. Then Keith and the team here went to Atlantic Records, made a business deal, and that’s how Bigger Picture really got started. The other piece of it is that there was a publishing company here in this very building, called Red Stripe Planes, which is where I came from. Through a set of circumstances they ended up merging, and that merger was the formal beginning of Bigger Picture as it is now. That was in 2009.

UCN: You guys have done a lot in a short time. Who was part of the core team?
DR: The main players were Keith and his business partner Alan Kates, who runs the publishing company. They then brought Michael Powers in. Three of the people from Live Nation ended up moving here and they were Bob Cahill, Executive VP of Sales and Marketing; Bob Ezrin, a world famous producer who worked with Pink Floyd and Peter Gabriel; and Bill Hein, who previously ran Enigma Records. That group was really the foundation for Bigger Picture. After about a year or two there was some concern about how the business was running and that’s when I came on board, to basically spearhead the business part of Bigger Picture. Right now, the team is me taking care of the business stuff, ‘keeping the trains on the track,’ Keith who is the creative head, and Michael Powers who is now President and who is responsible for the day-to-day business of promotion, artist management, and marketing. Bob Cahill works closely with Michael, and Alan Kates works closely with Keith and myself.

UCN: Was Bigger Picture created out of necessity would you say, where they realized no one was working the way they needed so the only way was to start a new company?
DR: I think it was a couple of things. Many of the people came from the big label environment. Keith had for years been the creative head of Mercury, and Michael had worked for Mercury and UMG. They were looking for an alternative way of doing business, which was the joint venture idea of partnering with artists. It was kind of circumstantial, where they liked that business model. They were also looking for the autonomy of not working for a big label.

UCN: Your current role is as CEO. What is your day-to-day role?
DR: I would say, principally, I’m involved in the financial and strategic sides of the business. And I’m also the guy who helps organize different things. This morning I met with Michael and Keith to talk over a few things. Keith’s a creative guy, he has a business head but he’s really an artist, and Michael coming from the promotion side – and I don’t know how much time you spend with promoters but they definitely march to the beat of their own drummer. [smiles] I guess I’m kind of the guy who facilitates communications between the various areas of the business, organizes the meetings, and looks after the financials. I don’t know if that makes me the grown-up of the team… [smiles] We were talking about it today, it brings a nice equilibrium where we all know what our strengths are. I know not to stray too far into the creative side, even though I sometimes have an opinion. I’m the one who reads the contracts and deals with the lawyers. Keith, Michael and myself, we all do our own thing but make sure we discuss what we do.

UCN: If such a thing exists, what would a regular day at the label involve?
DR: Lots of meetings. We have a couple of different facilities here on our campus, we have four separate buildings. We have an accounting building, the songwriters building, the publishing building, and this office building. I will spend time in each, meeting with the CFO or the controller, to review cash flow and payroll, and part of each day will be working on that aspect. I will spend time at the publisher’s place to see what’s going on there, find out if we have opportunities anywhere. I am typically here Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, and other days we talk on the phone. Today I had a meeting with Keith and Michael to talk about where we are at and how we did at radio this week, then this afternoon Chris and Kelly Janson are coming in for a joint venture meeting. I will sit in on that representing the business side to make decisions about tour support and how funds are allocated. On Wednesdays we have a marketing meeting where we will discuss each of our active projects, review the past weeks results, and plan the coming weeks activities. Most of what I do touches on money, sales, cash flow, things like that. I also try to find strategic opportunities. We’re always looking to grow the company. Stabilize the company, be successful, and then grow the business. One of the things here, and you’ll probably hear this elsewhere too, we’re very passionate about what we are doing. We are very passionate about our artists.

UCN: Can you describe the joint venture business model a bit more?
DR: We enter into a transaction with each of our artists where we form a separate business entity. The new business is owned, typically 50/50, by the artist and Bigger Picture. We provide the capital, investing the money to make a record, promote a radio tour, produce a video, etc. We also provide services here which can be management services, tour services or marketing services. The artists put up their intellectual property and their persona. Together we own the business and we sit down and make decisions together. We will discuss what we are doing, what is the business plan, how many songs are we going to record, what will be the first single, when do we release the single. Big labels tend to be more rigid about release cycles but we can be more flexible about what makes sense with the artist’s schedule. We own everything together. We own the record together, we may own the publishing together, we own the merchandise together, we own the touring together. You’re probably familiar with the 360 term labels use?

UCN: Indeed. Not a fan. [smiles] DR: Basically what the major labels do is sign an artist to a recording deal, and then say it doesn’t make a lot of sense, we can’t make money just from the record so we want 10% of your tour revenue, 5% from merchandise… As we describe it, it is kind of a land grab, taking without necessarily providing additional services. We like to think we do provide those additional services, in exchange for, if we are successful, a larger share of money than we might otherwise get. And the artist, if we all make good decisions together, can also be more successful and financially better off. It’s a different model and it locks us into all aspects of it. It’s distinctive from how things were done in the past, where different people took little slices of the pie, and everyone ended up selfishly working for their own slice. We really are in this together. We together decide, well, does this make the most sense, is this a good opportunity, does the touring aspect make more sense of something else? We always try to figure it out from both the creative and the financial aspect. It’s really a capitalistic entrepreneurial model, where we are in it together as business partners. It’s like a board of directors. You are an artist but you sit on the board and you have an equal vote.

UCN: I’m reminded of that saying that ‘a rising tide raises all ships.’ The reason I like this model is that everyone has a vested interest to work hard, where that hard work will then benefit everyone.
DR: That’s correct. And then both sides are better placed to make good business decisions. In the past people would just spend $100,000 on a music video because that’s just what you do. But here, we sit down to look at what makes most sense. We are sharing profits so let’s make good business decisions together. What do we want to spend a video, does it make sense to have a full band on the road and how much can we pay them if we do? It puts the artists and the business people on the same side. They help make good creative decisions and we help make good business decisions. We deal directly with the artists too. Often there is not even a manager that fits in between. It’s another reason why the model could be more profitable. Chris Cagle is a good example. He signed with us two years ago and we’ve had great success with him. He had a manager previously but now he just has a road manager that he depends on for the day-to-day stuff on the road, and Bigger Picture works closely with Chris fulfilling many of the management functions. We’ve been successful in developing a trusting partnership which I think he never had previously with a record company.

UCN: I think that might be because traditional record deals are not conducive to trusting partnerships…
DR: Yes, it becomes almost like enemies where the two sides have different interests. We’ve been able to build that by showing Chris we’re partners and saying ‘how can we be successful together?’

UCN: I still see labels work the old way where they throw half a million dollars at an artist with an attitude of ‘we’ll see where it goes.’ Then if that artist is not successful, the label just goes ‘Next!’
DR: No doubt about it.

UCN: But that artist still owes that money back and has lost trust in labels.
DR: Absolutely.

UCN: Do you think the era of the major labels is coming to an end? They still have the money and clout right now, but I think their business model is no longer working.
DR: Yes, I think that’s true to a degree, and I think they’re slowly starting to talk about it. It’s also that an artist who wants to be on an independent label, or just be independent, now has that opportunity. The physical distribution part of the music business is no longer as meaningful as it was. The big companies still have resources, big marketing budgets for one. But I think you’re right. Their day is not over necessarily, but it is a new day and they have got to find different ways to adapt and change their business plans. What they do have, and what is a challenge for us, is that they have substantial financial resources. In this business you need financial resources to be competitive because it is still driven by radio, and radio is expensive, and you have to tour and promote. As far as being truly independent, a few outliers have been able to do it, but generally it’s still too hard.

UCN: Yes, I think to grow a new independent artist at country radio is impossible.
DR: Oh, it is. You need meaningful financial backing.

UCN: In the event that the creative decision and the business decision don’t line up, which tends to win?
DR: You know, so far, we really haven’t had that happen. There was one situation where there was a project that would have been hard to get to radio. We did consider alternative ways to market a particular artist, but in that case the business part of it did dictate the strategy. The creative decision remained, the record wasn’t going to be changed, but the business side did dictate the marketing strategy. I think now more than ever, and you of course know this, the business is so driven by radio singles that there has to be a focus on those. What we are looking at now, like many companies, is trying to decide if we do a full-length project, a stand-alone single, an EP. Craig Campbell is a good example of that. We did an EP with him a few years ago which had good success, and then now we’re preparing for the second album so we need to think about that commercial aspect of it. And with him we have an artist who gets it, and who is supportive. He understands that if he wants this as a career, he needs to be thinking about what works on radio, how radio has evolved. Craig is described as neo-traditional but then radio has become more rock and pop, so Craig is smart enough to say that ‘hey, radio has evolved.’ He played with Luke Bryan so he saw what goes on. He is able to think practically where he still delivers his own music but recognizes the changes too. Artists who don’t see that and insist it gets done only their way, that could create a potential conflict with business decisions. The managing partner tends to have the final say, because we’re writing the checks, and that’s just standard in how any business works. But so far, we’ve not needed to do that.

UCN: You’ve never had to put your foot down?
DR: We have had to do that relative to a budget where we say ‘this is how much you can spend on promotion or tour support.’ At the end of the day, we are running a business. We are passionate about the music and really believe in our artists, but we have to keep the lights on and pay our staff. It’s a delicate balance. Anytime you’re dealing with art that commercial aspect will come up. Today’s artists need to understand that. You can make great art but you still need to have something you can take to radio.

UCN: How do you see the radio model evolving? Lately what has been successful has been music that fits into several genres.
DR: It does seem that the pendulum always swings. The hat acts became sort of unfashionable and it was baseball caps, but then Justin Moore and Dustin Lynch did well this year. I like to think that there is a blend of traditional-ish country music, that radio is still open to that. I look at The Band Perry and they have this uniqueness and are a little bit different but they have still been successful. There also the pop thing still with Lady Antebellum. But hopefully it won’t foreclose an artist like Craig Campbell.

UCN: Does this make it harder for people in your position to inform the business side?
DR: Well, here’s one thing that makes Bigger Picture different, and I think it’s interesting and we are proud of it. We have someone like Keith Stegall, who is in my mind a Hall of Fame-worthy producer. I wasn’t with the company yet when he discovered Zac Brown playing at 3rd & Lindsley, but he signed him because he saw something that was unique and special. But he sat on the record for a year because he didn’t believe that Nashville was going to get it. He has the experience to go looking for artists who can be, this is a strong word but he’s actually used it, iconic. As a producer he doesn’t really think about what’s going to work at radio, and he has a confidence that if you are an artist that is so special and distinct, that at the end of the day radio will embrace that. For example, with Chris Janson he really allowed the artist to be himself, which was important for Chris that he wasn’t pushed into a certain direction, which is what happened to him previously. Each of our artists is in some way unique and interesting. People have brought him artists where he’ll say ‘Yes, it’s good and maybe it can sell a million records, but it doesn’t have the uniqueness.’ But then I think, well, if this could sell a million records, maybe we should think about this. [laughs] So it’s a bit of a juggling act sometimes, but it makes us distinctive that we don’t go after the flavor of the month. And I think it speaks to who we are. We believe in Keith and follow his lead on the creative side.

UCN: Given the volatility and the unpredictable nature of the business, how do you approach potential investors?
DR: It’s definitely not easy. I’ve always been involved with music but I have a background in venture capital investment. To a degree, I think the music business is like venture capital, where of course you are hoping to invest in an artist that is going to be a big hit. Like Broken Bow who suddenly had Jason Aldean, his career pays all he bills and that they can grow the company. If you’re looking for a company to invest in, you look for a track record. So for attracting capital, part of what I am selling is Keith Stegall’s reputation where he has discovered and produced Alan Jackson and Zac Brown Band. Michael Powers has promoted some of the most successful artists. The bet really is on a team of people rather than just an artist. It’s myself, Keith, and Michael who are people who have been there and done it, and had success. Investors recognize that this is a challenging business and it is somewhat speculative. There are a lot of industries where there is a lot of risk, but it’s the classic risk-reward equation. It is a risk, but if you end up with a Jason Aldean, the reward is huge.

UCN: Yes, I guess if it pays off, it will do so in a big way.
DR: That is the model of the business. What I always say to our investors is if we are successful, our model will allow us to share more broadly in the success of that artist. That is the attraction.

UCN: From what I am hearing you say, when you sell the model to investors you’re really selling the people in the company. So, when I strip that down it all comes down to the relationships you have in the industry.
DR: Yes, I think it does. It’s about your team and their track record. Obviously, you have to be ethical, honest, and work hard. I mean, there has to be a reason why I have been commuting every week from Philadelphia for two years! [smiles] I have developed a passion for the artists, I believe in them, but also in the people on the whole team. It’s really fun to work with a team full of people you really believe in, who are really passionate, who will go through the wall for it, knowing how challenging and difficult this business is. It is about the team.

UCN: And you all do this because you are passionate about the music and it’s not all business.
DR: No doubt about it. Look, personally, I’m a business guy and I’ve been involved in creative businesses. I’m also involved with a restaurateur in Philadelphia and we have successful restaurants there, in New York City and elsewhere. It’s a lot of sizzle and it’s fun, but I want it to be successful financially. As much fun as it is, that is the goal. Here, we want to grow the company and get to a point where we take care of everybody, for these kids who work here and don’t make a whole lot of money, to be able to have them share in that success. It is a creative business, but my role is to add value and make sure that outside investors can make a return on their investment. But we still want to have a good time doing it. [smiles]

UCN: For new artists, who are just starting to look for deals, what kind of advice would you have for them? Also study the business, or just focus on the creative?
DR: I think it’s a combination. The creative sides needs to be developed but you can’t ignore the business side. Let me use the example of Chris Janson, because you know him. There, you need to find the support and nurturing atmosphere and an understanding of him as an artist. That needs to be balanced by the artist understanding the reality of the business, the challenges of radio promotion and how it’s really, really, really hard to get radio play no matter how good you are. It’s important for artists to spend time looking for a place where they will work with honest people and won’t be thrown up against the wall at the first sign of trouble, where they’ll know that if they don’t make it immediately they will still have support. Michael will tell you that it’s a seven-year cycle to break through. People look at stars like Jason Aldean and think he broke through easily but it’s seven years of hard work. Same with Luke Bryan and Eric Church; these guys have been around a long time. So with Craig Campbell, he’s only on his second record and is now getting to the point where he has visibility and building a career.

UCN: To round off, perhaps a strange question, but where do you see the role of failing. I actually think it’s important to fail, because failing temporarily doesn’t mean failure. And then how is that when you work with creative people for whom failing is often a more personal thing?
DR: That’s interesting. I think from the company’s standpoint, you learn the most from failing, and from being smart enough to not make the same mistake again. We’ve done plenty of that, and then you look back and think ‘oh my goodness, why did we do that?’ We’ve learned a lot! But from an artist standpoint you can say the same thing, as long as they can hang in there. We have had artists where we’ve spent a bunch of money but had little success, and then that leads to disputes, and then that career is sort of over. Then it’s a little harder, but it will also depend on the degree of failure.

UCN: Yes, of course, there’s failing and then there’s failing.
DR: Correct. When I look at Craig, there are a few things where we might say ‘we probably made a mistake doing this thing,’ whatever it is, a certain investment or certain tour decisions. Looking back you can see things we shouldn’t have done, and won’t do moving forward. He understands that and it has helped him in his career. It’s the same for anyone, if you have the patience. So much of this business is the ability to hang in there and last. You need to be able to wait for the right opportunity.

UCN: And then it’s about being ready when that opportunity comes. Whether you’re the company or the artist, when you suddenly find success but you haven’t laid the foundations and don’t have your act together, you can’t carry it and sustain that success.
DR: There’s no doubt about it. That is absolute key, that when you have that success, that you know how to handle it and how to leverage it. We don’t have a big mothership in New York, you know. [smiles] Without knocking the big labels, we don’t have that entity giving us a big budget. It’s our own hard-earned money and capital investment. It’s highly entrepreneurial. Chris Janson and Chris Cagle, both came from the big label side, so it is a little bit like we are rebels. Our artists are part of it, and they understand that. It’s a marathon and not a sprint. We don’t get 100 adds at radio in the first week, and we know we can’t. So when we get 29 with Chris Janson, that’s a small victory for us.

UCN: Was that the number?
DR: Yes, 29.

UCN: That’s really good though!
DR: Yes, for a small company, it is. So then we build it, add by add, from there. It’s about small victories over a long period of time. That is what it takes.

UCN: This was incredibly interesting. Thanks for sharing all this insight.
DR: You’re welcome.

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Liv Carter

Liv is a career coach for creatives, and the people who work with them.
She holds several certificates from Berklee College of Music, and a certificate in Positive Psychology from UC Berkeley.
Her main influences are coffee, cats, and Alexander Hamilton.

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