Little Rebellion Music

Quite possibly my favorite release of 2011 was the debut album by Nashville trio The Beagles. One of the songwriters behind that project is ole’s Matt Nolen, who formed the trio with Rick Huckaby, writing for Tracy Lawrence‘s LMG label, and Ward Davis, signed to Better Angels.

With the trio working on their next album, and finding increasing success as songwriters, this was a good time to talk with Nolen about his career so far. Starting out, as so many do, with writing simple songs when he was growing up, he has since recorded his own albums, been on the road with John Fogerty, and had his songs cut by other artists. We sat down in his comfortable writing room at ole and, with plenty of coffee, talked the morning away about the creative process, the business side of Music Row, the criteria that make up a good song, and what it takes to make a living as a songwriter (you know, without going insane…).

With this sixteenth interview in the Songwriters Circle series, UCN continues to examine the most interesting part of the music business – songwriting. After all, that is where it all begins.

UCN: When did you start taking songwriting seriously?
Matt Nolen: I was entering contests in high school with my songs and I won something on a Christian radio station. I had written a song that was kind of like a church type song. I also never really learned another song. I wasn’t the guy who tried to learn the riffs from stuff on the radio. I always liked making up stuff. I’ve never really been the guy in the cover band situation. But it happens all the time where you’re playing a gig and someone goes ‘can you play this, can you play that?’, and seriously, I’m not the best musician in remembering other people’s songs. But I’ve always felt like a writer and loved making up melodies.

UCN: Did it start with wanting to make up music, or from wanting to write lyrics?
MN: I think music first. I was playing piano, just making up stuff. Words came later.

UCN: Was there a lot of music in the family?
MN: No, I’m a little strange that way. My mom plays piano but no one really pursued it seriously; I kind of came out of nowhere with that.

UCN: I get that. No one in my family really lives for music and for me, it’s just about the only thing that’s going on.
MN: Yeah, exactly, you have this passion. There’s a lot of people in this business who were raised around it, so that knowledge is great and I wish I would have had that, but they don’t necessarily have the passion that people like us do. Growing up, for some reason I was drawn to music and that’s all I’ve ever done. There’s really nothing else. I mean, I tried to be an actor for five minutes, but that was because no one would give me a record deal. *smiled* I lived in New York at the time so I thought I’d try something else, but music has always been the main thing.

UCN: And you ended up in New York to pursue music?
MN: Yeah, I went up there to play in coffee shops and little bars, do songwriter nights. But they said I was too country. I did get in the door with some music business people and they went ‘you oughta go to Nashville,’ and I was like ‘but I just came from there!’ *smiles*

UCN: *laughs* And you had left Nashville because…?
MN: I couldn’t get anything going on here! They were telling me it sounded too much like pop. I mean, this is a little while back. Now, gosh, I’m probably too country for what’s going on at radio now!

UCN: It’ll swing back the other way, it always seems to.
MN: Yes, but that being said, I also didn’t know really how to write a real song. I was writing for me, it was all just self-gratification. I think I’ve learned to really write songs, you know.

UCN: Where did the sound come from that Nashville called too pop and New York called too country?
MN: I played a lot of piano. I was like this Sting, Bruce Hornsby, meets country thing… *smiles* And I liked all these piano players like Ray Charles, Billy Joel, Elton John, Floyd Kramer. I was doing this piano-based thing and every now and then that goes big, but it’s just not common.

UCN: The only name I can think of in country is Phil Vassar.
MN: Plus, he’s also a lot more happy-go-lucky. My stuff has a thread of dark in it. About half my songs are love lost and hopelessness kind of stuff. You know, the kind of stuff you really want to hear when you’re driving to work in the morning… *smiles*

UCN: *laughs* Exactly! But luckily you did end up back in Nashville.
MN: Yes, I got that gig playing with John Fogerty and that kind of gave me a name, so publishers were more interested in signing me. And it doesn’t mean anything really, just because you’re playing with an artist out there. Fogerty has never written a song with anybody so it wasn’t like I was going to get any cuts because I played for him. But all of a sudden it was ‘oh, you must be good.’

UCN: It’s fame by association.
MN: Yes, it’s totally these guys going to each other ‘I don’t know what I think, what should I think, what do you think?’ – ‘well, they like him’ – ‘ok, so I’ll like him too now.’ Everything changes when you have one big name to throw behind your songs. That was a cool thing. I really was in over my head as a musician, it was a little above my experience level. Everybody in the band were older, kind of famous musicians in their own right, and out of nowhere I came into that gig. I learned a lot.

UCN: It must have been intimidating too.
MN: Yes, they were hard on me. When you’re a piano player, growing up, when you’re in your bedroom playing, you play too much because you’re trying to fill it out. Your left hand is banging around the bass and you’re playing big melodies. Being in bands was always a challenge. By the time I became a professional keyboard player, you barely play anything. You play little parts but you don’t sit there and play all day. So you learn how to not be busy on the keyboard. I was a good experience.

UCN: After you got that little bit of name recognition, how did you then work your way into the songwriting community?
MN: This guy named Chuck Allen Floyd who I went to school with – I went to Belmont and Brad Paisley was around then, Rick Huckaby too, so I was always in touch with people who were into the mainstream country stuff, and I would always come back here once a month to write. So, Chuck, one of my best buddies, got a publishing deal and we wrote together. They just saw my name on all the songs I was writing with him. Skip Black and Chuck and all those guys kind of got a deal at the same time, so when they got in, that’s sort of when I got in.

UCN: I’m hearing a lot of ‘it’s who you know’ here. But there are so many writers here so how would a publishing company even start to narrow it down otherwise?
MN: I know. I mean, I try not to think that way. If I ever get in a position where I’m looking for people, you know, if I’m older and I end up in a business role, I really want to try not to do that and really always keep a part of my life open to thinking outside the box. And it’s not to say they don’t do that now, I mean, I was a weird guy to sign. *smiles*  Mike Sebastian [now Senior Director of Catalog at ole], when he signed me I didn’t write for mainstream country, so he took a chance.

UCN: What were the early writing sessions like when you first got signed?
MN: Well, originally the plan was maybe for me to be an artist. So for the first year, when everybody thinks you’re an artist, it’s actually kind of funny because you get some pretty big co-writes. I had a chance of doing that but that didn’t work out, and then it’s back to it just being you now and your songwriting ability. It’s funny that a lot of those big writers didn’t write with me anymore; it was just completely obvious. Like they would come up to you and go ‘Oh Liv, you’re getting a record deal? My name’s Joe Big Writer, let’s write!’ – ‘Oh, you didn’t get a record deal? Screw you.’ And it’s another one of those things, now that I’m going up my ladder in the songwriting world, I’m trying not to be that way. If someone’s talented and they help me, I should write with them. But I didn’t know as much then, I don’t blame them, everybody has to learn.

UCN: It’s a tough business to get to know too. Someone once told me that after he’d been here about two years he thought he’d figured it out, and now ten years later he realizes he knows less than he did then!
MN: Yes, it’s true! *smiles* When you see someone younger, who just moved here, they have this passion that says ‘I’m right, I know what I’m doing, and screw you.’ It’s like the one thing you hate about them, and the one thing you love about them! *smiles* Nashville can turn you into this passionless guy that punches a clock almost. People go ‘I will write this type of song because Luke Bryan is looking for this kind of thing.’ Literally, there’s a sheet that says who is looking for what. I’ve always tried to split my time and spend some of my time doing that, writing specifically for an artist, and then having a part of my schedule for having fun and writing whatever I want. But we’ll see, it’s a journey. By the next interview you can see how it worked out for me… *smiles*

UCN: *laughs* Yes, we’ll do this again in five years’ time and see. So, when you write specifically for an artist, what is your process like then? How do you start?
MN: There’s a few artists I have access to because I write with their producer. And the more you know about them, the better. If you know their producer you might have been told ‘well, he hates to sing about this topic,’ so you can go ‘that’s good to know, I won’t pitch that song then.’ Or they’ll tell you he’s got nine songs already and he’s looking for one more. Last album he had some sentimental thing about his mom and for this album he’s probably looking for that. Honestly, it’s almost like Wall Street and insider trading! *smiles* If you can find out info on people and who they are and what they’re looking for, you have a shot. And I know how it is from doing a record or two as an artist myself. I know exactly what they mean. You might pass on the best song ever because you are looking for one type of song. So maybe you can’t cut that song right now, even though you know that’s a hit. You’ve just got to know the artist a little bit.

UCN: And then the other side, when you’re writing what you want to write, how do you work then?
MN: I try to get a groove going. For me, all the music I love has a mood to it, and that mood is more important to me than anything they’re saying. Like some of the Fleetwood Mac songs, as soon as they come on you get the mood. So, I just kind of jam until I get that mood going and then just see what comes out. You’ll just start singing about stuff and then maybe a title pops into your head. Or maybe you have a title first, but usually the music, the beat, is first.

UCN: And then that mood brings forth imagery in your mind and then the words come?
MN: Yes, you have to step out on faith when you’re writing. You won’t see the next thing until you keep stepping out. I have a hard time starting with this ‘I have a title and two guitars playing G chords!’ that some writers do. For me, it’s just about ‘let’s really get in the groove.’ That’s in my opinion what still sells and what people are most attracted to. Not the end story line, not the hook at the end of the chorus, but I think it’s immediately ‘do they like how it sounds?’ I mean, look at all the hits that say nothing, or have some repetitive chorus. Not to say I don’t love lyrics, but I always think I’m brilliant coming up with this stuff that’s all deep and smart but, you know, my sister back in Texas doesn’t like that stuff. *smiles*

UCN: *laughs* Are they still your sounding board?
MN: No, not necessarily, but when I do go back to Texas and get around normal people who listen to the radio, I am humbled. I realize that I can get too snobby and I need to remember that people listen to music to feel good. That’s it. It’s not their whole life like it is my whole life. They just drive to work and music is just passing the time.

UCN: Yes, but I think broader, many people listen to music just to feel. Sometimes when I’m in a gloomy mood I seek out music not to make me feel better, it’ll be music that keeps me gloomy, but it’ll help me to feel.
MN: Yes, music is therapy, that’s what I’m basically saying. I mean, if it doesn’t have something to do with helping you get to the next place in life – I just think music is really important in that sense. So, I’m not really sure what trucks and jacked-up this-and-thats have to do with what we’re saying right now, but they do. *smiles* It’s about living for the weekend or something, you know, work is hard and life is boring. And some of that stuff you go, ‘man, that is so shallow,’ and it’s like ‘my speakers are going boom-boom,’ and…you know what I mean?

UCN: Oh, how I hate that song! *laughs* But yes, I know, it works at radio.
MN: Yeah, [Luke Bryan] won like all this stuff last night [at the American Country Awards], that’s why he’s on my mind. But see, I don’t resent that anymore, because obviously those people get it.

UCN: Yes, I had to learn that lesson too, and I learned it very slowly because I didn’t want to let go of what I thought was more meaningful. I think I’ve got to that same place of not resenting it anymore because I now understand there is a place for songs like that.
MN: Yes, and there’s always been. It’s funny because sometimes it’s a catalyst to better music. I mean, Bob Dylan got started writing because of that stupid song about a little puppy in the window, and he was like ‘man, I can write better than that!’ I mean, every generation has this part of it where you’re like ‘really? I hate that!’ But that’s never going to go away. I’m sure even in the classical music days they had those guys, you know. Wasn’t Mozart considered to be “too pop”? So it’s always been like that, and I try to do a little bit of that too, because it is fun. If you can turn off the snob part of you and just have fun, you kind of get it.

UCN: I think that would be nearly impossible for me to do; I would still want to have something to say. How does that work? What are you thinking when you step into a session like that? Do you make a decision like ‘I’m not going to think, I’m just going to have fun, and I’m going to think about how the words sound rather than what their meaning is?’
MN: First of all, it depends on who’s driving in this session. Everything I write by myself is, I think, pretty thought-out and meaningful. The stuff where I’m the only writer on it, I spend a lot of time thinking about the lyrics. I love to do that and I’ll always do that. But sometimes you get in a room and, say, you’re writing with this guy who has had three #1 hits this year. It’s just the way it is, you know. You can’t fight that momentum; they’ve got the ball and they’re rolling. They’re wanting to sing about stuff that I don’t necessarily relate to but I consider myself kind of a chameleon; I can write anything. I’ve written with guys in hip hop from New York and all kinds of stuff. That’s my job as a writer and I literally get paid per month to do that. It’s not all 100% about ‘I’m an Artiste.’ There’s a certain amount of this that is like that. I know a lot of writers who disagree…

UCN: Disagree with…?
MN: Well, there are writers who would disagree with writing stuff like that, where everything has to be personal and meaningful and, I don’t know, I sometimes feel like that’s a lower evolved state of thinking. I feel like I’m a better writer now because I can relate to more people. It doesn’t always have to be about me and what I like. I consider that a graduation to a new level. As I get older, I can go into a room and go ‘if that’s what you want to write, let’s do it.’ And it’s fun. At the end of the day, we’re having fun right? *smiles*

UCN: Yes, and really when you think about it, you realize how bizarre of a career this is. *smiles*
MN: Yes, it’s strange! And we’re like court jesters. This is not rocket science. I mean, my dad had a heart attack and I remember the heart surgeon. Everything went really well and the surgeon was real cocky and kind of young and just like a bad ass. And I was like ‘you know, you deserve it, you save people’s lives! You just saved my dad’s life, you get to be cocky.’ I don’t know that just because you have a song about something stupid that somehow made it to #1 because everything the artist puts out goes to #1, I don’t know that that makes you better than anybody else. We’re not saving lives and we’re not changing the world with every song. Sometimes when you write with someone who is like stuck on their way, and only their way, and I’m true to myself, it’s surprising how trite it can be usually, and just kind of boring. They’re usually not saying something special or different. I’m not trying to be negative…

UCN: No, I think I know what you mean.
MN: Sometimes it’s the people who – I call it the ‘East Nashville Lightning 100’-type stuff, which I do love too. But they’ll go ‘man, I don’t do that cheesy stuff, let’s just be cool,’ and it’s usually not as cool as they think…

UCN: I think it’s like anything, if you try to force it, especially with something creative, it’s just not going to feel right. If you force depth or profoundness, it’s not going to happen.
MN: And if you’re 22 years old and your idea of depth and profound is basically copying another artist that you’re listening to all the time – say you listen to Jack White all the time, so now your music sounds like that, that’s not depth. So guys like Jeffrey Steele you mentioned before, that just came out of nowhere. That was his interpretation of the world through music. Maybe it’s too country for one guy but I think real art is something that’s said differently, that’s said in a way maybe you haven’t heard before.

UCN: Yes! And that’s the ultimate thing for songwriters, to come up with either an idea that’s not been written, which I’m not sure still exists, or take an idea and write it in a completely new way.
MN: Yes, and like any conversation that you have that’s interesting, when you’re just talking with people, if you hit it off with someone, you’re not trying to think of things to say, right?

UCN: Yes, there’s rapport.
MN: There’s flow. So it doesn’t matter that you’ve talked about that before. When you meet someone at a coffee shop, you don’t have to talk about something that’s never been talked about. There’s just this click when it works. And that is what I look for in co-writers. I mean, we can write about love, but it’s about it being your way of saying it and I’ve never heard it said like that before, or maybe it’s just more honest.

UCN: Something that came up in one of the first interviews I did here was about writing very universal lyrics to try to make it relatable, and how that’s not the way. It would be about not writing details because ‘oh that’s not going to mean anything to someone listening.’ But making it personal is the way to make it relatable, and people will connect with the underlying emotion. Current perfect example is the song Lee Brice cut, ‘I Drive Your Truck.’ A very specific situation, a specific vehicle from a specific person, described in detail, but you still connect because of the emotion carried in the lyrics.
MN: Yes, I agree with that totally.

UCN: So how do you start doing that? The furniture you add to your songs, where does that come from?
MN: Well, you know, usually the people who write that are also interesting as people in general. They’re just interesting people and they come from a different part of life. Do you know what I’m saying? I’m not making fun of anybody…

UCN: No, I get it, I liked what you said about a song or a writer you connect with being like when you click with someone and you have that good conversation. They’re interesting people, therefor they have interesting things to say.
MN: And this is the case with almost every part of entertainment. Like there are certain actors where you just kind of like to watch them, I don’t know why. They don’t even have to be good actors, they just have that it-factor that people are drawn to. That’s just the magic and every business seeks that. I think some songwriters have that too, where if they say something, some people will go ‘oh, that’s cool.’ I don’t know how you get that, maybe you’re born with it. Or, you have it a little bit and you develop it. It’s just true, some people are more interesting than others. It’s kind of about finding your voice as a writer.

UCN: How did that happen for you? You started with little piano melodies and how did you develop your writing? When was the first moment you wrote something and thought, ‘you know, this is really good’?
MN: Oh, man! Gosh, I don’t know. I think it’s kind like as a kid playing sports and you get to a point where you actually get stronger and old enough to where you actually hit the ball out of the park. Some of it is just growth. I’m not sure when that happened or what specific song that was. I look at it like math, like you can’t leave a fraction like ⁸⁄₄, you need to break that down to ²⁄₁. So, I feel like in songwriting I would go through every line and go ‘have I said that fully to the best I can?’ I mean, I have these little rules in my head, I’m not sure I can even explain what it is. There’s a certain formula I have. When I started checking that against other hit songs, when I listened to all these other writers of all different generations and different genres of music, I started feeling like I’m in that league, you know. I don’t know that I’ve had my big Super Bowl moment, but I’m definitely in the pros and I have that thing. And that came from literally writing music since I was a kid.

UCN: So, it’s practice more than anything? Rather than say reading a book on songwriting and learning, it’s just about actually doing it and learning?
MN: Yes, I think it’s a mixture of hard work and having that it-factor in the first place. I don’t believe in luck necessarily, but I believe in opportunities and meeting the right people. If you mix those three things together, you can have a pretty big career. I don’t know that you can pick up a book on how to write and then learn. It’s weird because there’s colleges offering that as a degree now. And I think, ok, so they have a piece of paper that says they have a songwriting degree, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to sing your song if I’m an artist.

UCN: Or even that you’re going to get a cut ever.
MN: And then there are those weird songs that totally break all the rules, but it goes #1 because, again, there’s something weird, some it-factor that you can’t put your finger on.

UCN: Combining some of the stuff we’ve mentioned, after many songs about trucks and dirt roads, it became this thing in certain circles to instantly dismiss any songs that mentioned any of those things. If it had ‘truck’ in the title, it had to be a bad song.
MN: Oh, I’ve been that guy. *smiles*

UCN: I have to fight so hard not to do that but I really try. I will get sent upcoming songs, and the first time I heard Kip Moore’s ‘Somethin’ ‘bout a Truck’…
MN: I was just thinking about that song! *smiles*

UCN: The person who sent me that thought I wouldn’t like it because ‘oh it’s just another stupid song about a truck.’ And I’m going ‘no, this is brilliant!’ *smiles*
MN: Yes, it is!

UCN: And one of the main reasons I love it, is what you just said: it breaks the rules! It basically goes verse-verse-verse-verse-chorus-verse-chorus. I mean, who does that in Nashville? I love that! *smiles*
MN: It’s like those games where you have to keep adding stuff and you have to remember it. *smiles*

UCN: Yes, he’s got these four verses and then the chorus is created from those four elements in the verses. It’s just such a fantastic piece of writing!
MN: One of the guys who wrote that, I know him personally, and he has worked really hard and been a great songwriter for a long time before he had that #1. And all of a sudden it comes out of nowhere and people go ‘hey, he must be good.’ He’s a great example, Dan Couch. You know, all of a sudden he’s good on Music Row. He’s been good a long time! *smiles*

UCN: Oh yes, I know exactly what you mean, I’ve seen that happen to friends of mine too.
MN: I guess what we’re basically saying is that when you have that natural ability, and maybe you do have a little magical thing that you do, if you mix that with ten years of really working and trying to learn from people, that’s a great combination. It can’t be purely academic, and it can’t be purely how I feel today; there’s some kind of little marriage there. It’s kind of like a sport, you have to exercise. I know I’m not as good of a writer if I don’t write every day. I’m a little slower if I don’t.

UCN: That’s interesting. What comes slower, the ideas, or making the connections between them?
MN: It’s not that I’m any less creative. It’s just that when you’re writing every day – I mean, let’s say you’re writing bad songs about trucks every day and you don’t like doing that really, well, one benefit of doing that is that you’re just sharp. So, if then an idea comes that you really do love, there’s just something that flows. I mean, you’re a writer too, you know how it is, right?

UCN: Yes, actually, I do.
MN: It’s just experience and how it comes quicker the more you do it.

UCN: It just seems to put your brain in a zone, and if you go away on vacation or you go do something else, you take yourself out of that. Yeah, I get it.
MN: And then there’s the real mystery of ‘what is good?’ It’s a subjective thing at the end of the day. In my mind, I’ve got something where I can hear something and go ‘I can beat that.’ And I’ve heard songs that I thought were hits and I was frustrated that they didn’t get cut but then I go back and listen to it – I just thought of one the other day. I’ve got a song where the chorus, to me, is like a hit. I wrote it several years ago in Mexico. There’s this drink called michelada, it’s like beer with a bloody mary mix kind of thing.

UCN: That does not sound like anything I want to drink…but do go on.*laughs*
MN: I know. *smiles* I’d never heard of it before I went to Mexico with all these guys. But we started drinking them and we wrote this song where, in the verse, this guy is drinking micheladas and watching the girls go by. So here, it’s three years later and I listen to it the other day and I was like ‘what the hell is a michelada?’ *laughs* I mean, I would totally pass on that song if I was A&R or an artist. Why not say margarita or something? I guess sometimes being too detailed can be weird, and that’s a prime example. So, I’m thinking about, in 2013, going through all my songs that I thought were great and looking at them and go ‘maybe I need to re-do this one.’

UCN: Now I’m interested in those criteria of what makes a song ‘good’, or at least ‘not bad’. I had to do the same thing to review music, the stuff I wouldn’t personally listen to. At home it’s all James Taylor, Matt Nathanson, and the like.
MN: Oh, I didn’t know that about you…

UCN: Really? The James Taylor thing? Dude, I love him! *smiles*
MN: Have you heard Rick [Huckaby]’s song about James Taylor?

UCN: That song is why we’re friends. *smiles* He played that and I thought ‘I need to talk to that guy!’
MN: Yeah, that’s a brilliant song. *smiles*

UCN: It’s when I get sent the other type of songs, I had to really think ‘ok, take away that snobbery, that judgment, what are your criteria for reviewing these songs?’ It’s been really hard sometimes. There are songs I almost don’t want to like, and I guess I still don’t like them, but there’s nothing wrong with them when I objectively try to apply those criteria. One of them is #1 right now, Florida Georgia Line’s ‘Cruise.’ I’m not going to purposely listen to that, but there is not enough wrong with it for me to go ‘this isn’t good enough.’
MN: I know. That’s a perfect example.

UCN: So how do you apply those criteria while you’re writing it, as opposed to when you listen to someone else’s material?
MN: See, I gotta be careful. Remember I told you about not wanting to be that guy who gets old and jaded and has to ask everybody ‘what do you think, because I don’t know what I think.’ And I found myself on that particular song, my first impression was of rolling my eyes. Then I found out one of my buddies played the instruments on the track, and I found out who the producer was [Joey Moi], who I love, and then when I knew all that, all of a sudden it’s good because I know these people who were involved with it.

UCN: Yes, it gave you a connection with the song.
MN: Yes, and see, that’s getting too “insider”, and I’m becoming too music business-y like that. I’m trying to back out of that and just pretending like I’m always the guy driving down the road just listening to the radio. I think it’s also a demographic thing where certain songs relate to certain age groups. Young girls like those guys and they picture themselves being in that song.

UCN: Yes, and their demographic is the college age group, so the college guys want to be that guy with the brand new Chevy, and the college girls want to be the girl in that song.
MN: Yes, and cliché as it is, I’ve had five pick-up trucks in my life; it’s all I’ve ever driven. There’s something about pick-ups for me.

UCN: Hey, I drive one too, it’s not like I don’t get that part of it. *smiles*
MN: Yes, and when you’re driving down a country road with the windows down, it is a great feeling. I know it’s cliché, and I don’t necessarily write a song about it, but, again, people who are driving to work or going to school and listen to music occasionally, they’re not keeping tabs on the fact that the last song was about that too. They don’t care. It’s like me with movies. I like thrillers and stuff, and I don’t care that it’s another spy movie, you know. I like spy movies. *smiles* So maybe those people like truck songs. I’m sure there are people in the industry in Hollywood going ‘Gosh, another spy movie? Really?’ *smiles*

UCN: Yes, in the same way we’re doing this, they’ll be like ‘do we really need another James Bond movie?’
MN: Exactly.

UCN: Actually, now that I say that…yes. Yes, we do. Because the last one was brilliant. *smiles* But anyway, about songs…
MN: Yes, so it’s about criteria whether you’re a movie critic, or a food critic, or a music critic. It’s just funny because at the end of the day, it’s subjective. It is not golf. I did not win because I had three birdies today.

UCN: True, it’s not math, but what then when you’re in those sessions where it’s headed the commercial route and it’s all trucks and cat fish – have you ever had it where a song emerges where you don’t feel right about signing off on it and having your name on it? Then what do you do?
MN: It’s happened to me several times and it tends to be with a young artist who is getting a record deal or just did. I mean, my hands are tied in those situations because you don’t want to be… I don’t know, maybe I need to think about this more. Actually, the last one of those that I had, I said something. I said ‘you know, this isn’t killing me and here’s why.’ But, you know, now I doubt I will get to write with that artist again.

UCN: And then it becomes an integrity issue and about making that decision on what carries the most weight in that situation?
MN: Well, here’s the problem. I used to be scared of that situation where I’m writing with this guy, he’s signed at Sony, I better do whatever he says. Here’s the other side of that – because I’m still an up-and-coming writer, I’m not the guy where they say ‘everything he does is brilliant, let’s cut that song’ – so what I realized is that he is now going to take a piece of shit into Sony and it has my name on it. So, I’m actually better off not finishing something that’s a piece of shit, in my opinion. That’s a new philosophy! *smiles*

UCN: *laughs* I think that’s a very good philosophy! You’re right, it’ll have your name on it. Forever.
MN: And the other thing is, this young girl that I didn’t even finish the song with, and this title is cliché and I feel like this is not special to me, I think maybe I won’t get on this record, or the next one, but there might be a day where she respects that, and looks back and goes ‘oh yeah, I get it now.’ So, having more integrity is something I’m trying to do and not just write everything.

UCN: But it’s weighing that up against the business side of the music business.
MN: One of my criteria is that I don’t like copying stuff; sounding like and being similar to something else. We were writing a song the other day and the guy was all into it but I went ‘you know, this sounds like ‘Mary Jane’s Last Dance’.’ I mean, I don’t want to copy that song anymore, people have already done that.

UCN: With integrity and not copying being important, how good does it feel then to do something like The Beagles, where you do exactly what you want?
MN: Well, what’s interesting is that it’s not exactly what I would do. None of us would do that on our own.

UCN: I mean, the project as a whole, no one is telling the three of you to write a certain thing.
MN: It’s so organic, it just comes from the three of us being in a room and I don’t know what it is, because something like that doesn’t happen a lot. It’s fun!

UCN: It’s fun to listen to as well. *smiles*
MN: We’re working on a new record and we were there last night with the investor and he was loving it. I feel like I’m a part of something special. I don’t know, special no longer has to be big money and record deals and recognition. Special is something I look back on and say ‘man, I’d like to play my kids The Beagles stuff someday.’ I think it’s really cool. Yes, we do exactly what we want to do, who cares if it’s too this or too that. And we’re three different people. I feel like the three of us wouldn’t necessarily have hung out without this band; it’s weird.

UCN: That’s something that I think really translates on stage; you guys are all so different! There are three completely different personalities, but that’s why it works.
MN: I know. What we all have in common is a lot of disappointment in this town, so we treat each other pretty well and are pretty humble. We want everybody to be happy because we’re tired of this system. Doing something that you’re happy about by yourself is important.

UCN: And now that you’ve written a record like that and navigated the waters of independent releases, is that something you want to keep doing alongside your writing?
MN: Yes. I told them the other day, when I was a kid I grew up listening to records and that was enough. I mean, I never saw any of the people live. Somehow, music has become a promotional tool. An album is that tool to get you to come watch them so you’ll buy a t-shirt. I mean, with movies, I just saw The Dark Knight Rises, and I don’t need to see them do that live when they come to Nashville! The movie itself is the art, and I think albums should be that. I mean, we’ll play if we can, but making these albums – I think we’ll keep doing it every year. They are in themselves something cool, and I think people are getting away from the album. It’s just a promotional tool for the artist.

UCN: True, and I think it is easier now to put out an album, well, for certain values of the word ‘easy.’ *smiles* You don’t need a record label anymore to get your music out.
MN: Yes, you and I can record something right now, I can mix it right here in this room, upload it, and somebody in Sweden will like it on facebook by seven o’clock tonight! It’s crazy! Imagine that thirty years ago. It’s pretty cool and it makes it super competitive. And also, even the little bit of gear that’s sitting right there is better than what The Beatles had to record on.

UCN: How do you see things evolving for independent artists? I think the age of the massive record labels is over.
MN: Yeah, I do too.

UCN: Now, the major independents are ruling the world, like the Big Machine Label Groups and those guys.
MN: Which is ironic because they’re essentially becoming like the big ones…

UCN: Yes, in that they’re becoming of that size, but they still have a new business model. So they may be starting to wield the same power, but they do it with a modernized business plan.
MN: I think the music business is trimming the fat. There’s a lot of stuff that used to happen that doesn’t make sense anymore, like the producers who don’t do anything, you know, just the big guy with the big cigar who picks the band. Now, there are guys who are serious producers, they play every instrument, they creatively bring something to the table. Artists aren’t even listening to the A&R people anymore. I almost don’t want a song on hold by an A&R guy.

UCN: Be careful what you say… *smiles*
MN: Hey, no, I’ll admit it! It may be controversial to say but I don’t care. Now, the artists are cutting the songs and the managers have a lot more to do with that. It’s like you said, that old hierarchy is going. We can all make our own records now.

UCN: You used to have to get past seven doors to get to the artist and now you really don’t. I mean, if anything else, you can send them a tweet going ‘I think you should cut my song!’ *smiles*
MN: Yes, it’s a smaller world. But that said, the labels can still make you famous, they still have that power, which is pretty cool, but maybe just being famous is not what you want. I mean, there are independent people making more money than some of the major label artists. In Texas, there are some guys that make millions of dollars a year. When they come up here they play the The Basement and no one even comes out. But they own the record and they sell 100,000 units down there. The Beagles, we just need to sell 10,000 units and we have ourselves a great year, but that’s not going to work for a major artist, they have to sell more than that.

UCN: Yes, because the label has already put in half a million dollars before they even step foot on the road, and then they owe that back.
MN: Oh, I know, exactly. I don’t know, man, I just have to admit that I’m not real sure what’s going on with the music industry. My job is to keep putting out quality stuff, what I think is quality and what I believe in. I think I’ll always have a place if I’m talented and I keep working hard. Who knows where it will all end up?

UCN: It will be interesting to see in ten years what happened.
MN: I’ve been here longer than I want to admit; people think I’m younger than I am. I’ve seen artists or producers suddenly be the stars, and now no one knows them anymore. So that’s taught me to just not chase it too hard. Just make sure you’re with good people who believe in you. With The Beagles, Rick’s got a song on the radio now [Thomas Rhett’s ‘Beer with Jesus’], Ward’s looking like he’s going to get a big cut soon, and we all got a big cut together too recently, and all of a sudden we’re cooler than we were last year. You can’t just listen to the town, to some degree you just have to keep pressing forward.

UCN: And that is a great final statement. Thank you so much for sharing your insight.
MN: Thank you!

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• About
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Liv Carter

Liv is a career coach for creatives, and the people who work with them.
She holds several certificates from Berklee College of Music, and a certificate in Positive Psychology from UC Berkeley.
Her main influences are coffee, cats, and Alexander Hamilton.

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