Songwriters Circle: Clay Evans

12 years ago Liv Carter Comments Off on Songwriters Circle: Clay Evans

I hear a lot of new music. In any given week, I am sent upwards of 100 new CDs. This is probably true for most music writers: if you want to grab my attention, you need to arrive with something special; something I haven’t heard from anyone else.

Nashville singer-songwriter Clay Evans did just that with his upcoming release I Could Be You. The 12-track disc, produced by Viktor Krauss, blends country, americana, blues, pop, romance, and cynicism. It simultaneously houses songs that made me laugh out loud, and one of my favorite-ever love songs.

And just as I like the interviews in this series to go, we started out with an interview but then just ended up in conversation, discussing every aspect of songwriting and the, sometimes harsh, reality of life in Nashville…

 

UCN: Let’s go back to the very beginning. Why did you start writing?
Clay Evans: Because I had to. It’s therapy.

UCN: And it’s cheaper than a therapist?
CE: Yeah. *smiles* I’ve never been to therapy so writing was always my therapy. I think I write because I have to get stuff out. There’s some songs on this record that were very therapeutic, like ‘Full of Shit.’ When I moved to Nashville, in 2007, I had just broken up with that girl. I started that song in 2007 and the record is still not even released. ‘Dead Man’ is that way too, but that’s not meant to be to a specific person, but just to that person that you just can’t stand and have to get away from. People seem to relate to the lyrics… *smiles* ‘If we were stranded on an island/and you were the only girl around/if it was a matter of living or dying/and the sky was falling down/and the only way to save myself was to take you back again/you’d be looking in the eyes of a dead man.’ It’s really cold shit. But it’s fun, you know. *smiles*

UCN: I like how it’s written. Yes, it’s harsh but it’s not nasty.
CE: Yeah, it’s tongue in cheek. I didn’t really say that to a girl. But I think everybody can look back and say ‘there was a point where I felt that way about someone.’ So, yeah, there’s some anger on this record…

UCN: *laughs* Some?
CE: *laughs* Hey, I had to get it out.

UCN: Oh, I don’t mind. One of my favorite albums of all time is [Maroon 5‘s] Songs about Jane. I mean, talk about being pissed off! *smiles*
CE: Yeah, he even thanked her for being his muse.

UCN: Who were your writing influences, the people who made you think about how songs are crafted?
CE: Bill Withers. I used to have a cassette player in my truck and had the Bill Withers Greatest Hits in there for years, when I lived in Atlanta. I tried to quit music from 2005 to 2007. I really did quit, didn’t pick up the guitar. But I still listened to music and had that cassette in the truck and I think he was one of the main guys who made me go ‘I can do this, and I need to do this.’ He keeps it so simple and real. I’ve also always loved John Hiatt and Paul Simon. Bruce Hornsby is a big influence even though I don’t play piano, his approach influenced me a lot. Sam Cooke, and a lot of the old soul singers. And then John Prine, you know, and there’s humor in his songs. There’s so many others too. I get really inspired by contemporary artists, but for actual influence, I try to look back further.

UCN: Do you ever catch yourself trying to write like some of those influences?
CE: Oh, I have no qualms about going ‘what would Bill Withers say here?’ But I would never say ‘What would John Mayer say?’ Yeah, I try to rip those old-school guys off, just in a way that you’re not going to be able to tell. *laughs*

UCN: Is there a certain structure you use to write songs?
CE: It’s different for different songs, but for example, ‘Just Like That’ the opening song, started with a guitar groove which I had for a couple of months. Then the lyric was next, and then the cadence, the rhythm, and from that the melody just fell out. But then other songs, like ‘Dead Man,’ the lyric was the very first thing. We wrote the chorus first and went ‘that’s awesome.’ *smiles*

UCN: Do you remember the very first song you wrote?
CE: Yes, I do. It was called ‘The Unforgiving Minute.’ It was an awful song… *smiles* But it was from a Kipling poem…

UCN: Oh yeah, I know which one you mean.
CE: ‘If you can fill the unforgiving minute with 60 seconds worth of distance run…’

UCN: ‘Yours is the Earth, and everything in it.’ I love that poem!
CE: So yes, that inspired the first song.

UCN: How old were you?
CE: 21.

UCN: That’s interesting. I often hear stuff like ‘I wrote my first song when I was 5!’
CE: Oh, I was late getting into it. I had started playing guitar when I was 15 but didn’t start singing until college. In High School I was concerned with what was cool, and football was way cooler than chorus. Looking back, I wish I’d done it, I’d be better now. *smiles*

UCN: But then again, maybe if you had more formal training, you wouldn’t be writing this kind of material.
CE: True. And I don’t think I’d love it as much if I was taught or told by anyone how to do it. It was just therapy, an escape. I guess it still is.

UCN: It may have limited you by being taught ‘this is how you write a song’ or ‘ this is how you construct a rhyming scheme.’
CE: Yes. Coming to Nashville is good for any writer. You do have to follow the rules to some extent, but it’s nice to be free going into it. I learned the rules as I went.

UCN: How technical do you get about things now?
CE: I just do whatever feels right. Telling a good story is the main focus with this record. There’s songs like ‘Best,’ with the perspective change from one chorus to the next. There’s some Nashville in that but hopefully not too much.

UCN: That’s actually currently my favorite song.
CE: Really? Awesome. *smiles* I love that song too, I don’t play it enough. It’s a love song, but not about anybody specific. If you want it to be about you, then it is. *smiles*

UCN: *laughs* I like that… It actually took me a while to hook into that one; I had heard the record about 5 or 6 times by then. I was listening to it again and suddenly went ‘Damn, this is good.’ Then I told a friend that there was this song that described exactly what I think is a good relationship.
CE: Oh, cool.

UCN: The two people are confident and saying ‘if you can’t take this side of me, you don’t deserve all the good things about me either.’
CE: Hopefully it proves that I do have a romantic side, you know. *laughs* Because, with songs like ‘Dead Man’ and ‘Full of Shit’…

UCN: And ‘I Could Be You’…
CE: Yes, and ‘I Could Be You’! *smiles* So it brings a balance, hopefully. Like ‘The World Doesn’t Work’ hopefully balances out the cynical songs.

UCN: What made me think of getting technical was the song ‘Lonely Like Me,’ where the syllable count is off. I used to work with a producer who would have a seizure listening to that. He wanted everything to be totally neat.
CE: Oh yeah.

UCN: He would have people change words to make everything fit. But I think, no, if this is the sentence you want to say, that should go in the song like that.
CE: Yes, I probably need to write more stuff like ‘Lonely Like Me.’ It was written around the time I first moved here. I was in a band called Bluestring. We were on Butch Trucks’ label, and, well, the verse kind of tells the story… *smiles* That was still fresh in my mind, and musically I was sort of starting over.

UCN: That’s a true story, obviously, but do you ever create characters to tell your stories through?
CE: Oh for sure! My grandfather taught me: Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. These songs are autobiographical, yes, but Nashville has shaped my writing a lot. Sometimes if I just wrote what happened it would probably suck to listen to it. *smiles*

UCN: So like in ‘Just Like That,’ you have the character who actually bought the girl a car, which you didn’t do, but the song is grounded in real life?
CE: Yes, and I think we all do that. You have to keep the story interesting, and you if have to fabricate some stuff for that, go ahead. I used to think all songs were totally autobiographical, and I’d think ‘wow, that guy’s wife must have really left him and it’s really sad,’ Then I found out many artists don’t even write their own songs, so I went through that disappointment. *laughs* I did write all these songs but I also relied on co-writers.

UCN: Is there any song where you didn’t create a character?
CE: Well, ‘Full of Shit’ was very real… *smiles*

UCN: How did I know that you were going to say that? *laughs*
CE: *smiles* Well, it’s the only one I wrote solo. Though, I should have probably credited the girl, too. *laughs*

UCN: One of the first comments I had when I first heard the record was about the main character, so to speak, in the songs. I just love this guy. Is that part of building a character, like you know what you’re doing, or is that just the guy who ends up in all the songs because that’s how it comes out?
CE: A little of both, but probably more just the way it comes out rather than doing it on purpose. But Viktor [Krauss] had a cool vision for it too, even down to the song order. I think he had a cool vision for who this character is and where and when the character says what. I sometimes lose perspective on that. For the most part, it’s me. All these songs are sides of me. I think this record tells you who I have been for the last 5 years.

UCN: I wondered with a song like ‘Words,’ is that really the guy saying ‘Oh, I’m not good with words,’ or, is he thinking ‘well, I know I am, but I’m going to pretend I’m not and come off all romantic’? If that song was a movie, the guy would be played by Hugh Grant.
CE: Oh yes, ‘Words’ is very crafted. *smiles* It’s a love song that doesn’t immediately seem like a love song.

UCN: Well, it’s not sappy, which is why I love it.
CE: That’s good. I’m glad you don’t think it’s sappy. Yes, it’s ironic because it really is poetic, but it’s also true. When I wrote the line ‘I’m not good with words,’ I really have felt that way most of my life. Especially in love, I really don’t feel like – I mean, it’s difficult, and I think a lot of guys feel that way. I wrote that with a really genius guy, James Farrell, who is just a wordsmith. I brought in a concept, more than anything, and he was able to really help me craft it into something that makes people go ‘oh wow, that’s cool.’

UCN: When you say you’re not good at expressing yourself, is that part of why you’re writing songs? I mean…well, ok, what am I trying to say now…? Let’s again refer to Jack Ingram‘s record, I often bring this up. It’s called Acoustic Motel. [I talk about this record so much, if you enjoy the songwriter’s interviews, I know you will love this album.You can find it on iTunes here.] CE: I’ve never heard that one.

UCN: It’s one of my favorite records in the history of everything! One of the things he says is that he’ll find himself writing the same kind of thing over and over, and says that he feels if only he could write it well enough, then the thought would be out of his head. Does that sound familiar?
CE: That’s interesting. And yes, I think you’re always trying to write the perfect song, and you never do. So it’s a struggle. You’re your own worst critic. A lot of your themes will be recurring. But that’s really interesting… To some degree, you can’t really help what kind of songs you write.

UCN: James Taylor said this during a show last year: “People may think I wrote 150 good songs, but really I wrote 15 songs 10 times.”
CE: Yeah, maybe you do write the same concepts, like a certain type of love song. But then it’s about finding different ways to say it each time.

UCN: Well, for example, with Keith Urban‘s material, he has like 20 songs where the premise is being afraid to open up. And then it must be something that’s in his head, otherwise he wouldn’t keep writing it. So, maybe, if he can write that down as a perfect thought, he could let that thought go, you know?
CE: Yeah, I think that’s cool. I now have the urge to write really, really positive stuff. I love this record, but it’s pretty much just about my life. Now, I’d like to focus on bigger messages. You’ll always evolve and change, and so will your music.

UCN: What bring the most inspiration, things going wrong or things going well?
CE: Well, there was a lot going wrong that inspired this! *smiles* It’s hard to say, really. Struggle can be inspiring, though it doesn’t always feel that way at the time. But I get inspired when things are tough.

UCN: There’s a great line in ‘By God, She’s Mine’ that says ‘She’s a disaster but a hell of a muse.’ And I thought, ‘Wow, that’s such a songwriter thing to say!’ *smiles*
CE: Yeah, at the time I was like ‘What the hell? Why is this happening?’ but it’s a great story. Yeah, that’s an interesting song to talk about… *laughs* And that’s about a real person, too.

UCN: There’s so much in that one. The first time I heard it at Bourbon st Blues Bar, I didn’t know you at all, I was there to listen to Chris [Nathan], and when you started to play it and in the beginning had the line ‘She goes to yoga after therapy,’ I was like ‘God, I already don’t like this girl!’ *laughs*
CE: *laughs* Yeah, she was one of those! But it’s good that it makes you think. I mean, you don’t like the girl from ‘Dead Man’ either, but nobody does.

UCN: But that’s different though, because there we just have the guy’s thoughts.
CE: Yeah, she’s not as painted.

UCN: When you write songs like that, are you aware you’re making personal stories public?
CE: Yeah. I can be pretty shameless. *smiles* I also don’t write just for me, I want everyone to hear these stories. That song has also got some shock value, I guess, I want to make a splash.

UCN: Do you ever put stuff in on purpose knowing the person you’re writing it about will hear it?
CE: No, I think that would be selfish. And if I ever did that, I’d try to do it in a humorous way to where at least the girl would be able to laugh about it. But I wouldn’t want to try to hurt anyone’s feelings. And, you want to try to write the song that the most number of people can relate to.

UCN: That’s something that often comes up and I find it interesting that it keeps coming up – the difference between writing universal lyrics versus specific lyrics.
CE: Well, consider this, sometimes the most profound, specific lyrics end up being the most universal, you know?

UCN: Yes, I know exactly what you mean!
CE: I guess it’s because when we sing the song we wrote, we’re also selling it, we’re presenting it. So if we really feel it, we’re gonna sell it better. And if we sell it that much better, people will feel it more.

UCN: Yes, I think there’s a lot in that. I think some people try to write as inclusive as possible, and an artist said to me just yesterday that he thinks that if he writes really specific, people won’t get it. So I went, “OK, ‘Fire and Rain,’ explain that.” I mean, you can hardly get more personal and specific than that song, the exact story is in the song, but still, people all over the world hold on to that song because of the authenticity of James Taylor’s lyrics.
CE: Yes, it’s really interesting. And here’s the thing, you have business telling you to be more broad, but maybe the answer is that to be more broad, you need to stick to what you know.

UCN: I think the big labels don’t always get this. The fans know if you’re just making stuff up. I mean, it’s OK to like a song that’s just fun to dance to and you don’t care much about the lyrics, that’s fine sometimes…
CE: *sings* ‘Country girl, shake it for me, girl…’

UCN: No! Don’t! Shut up! *laughs*
CE: I’m sorry… *laughs*

UCN: Oh, how I hate that song…
CE: I know. It’s bad.

UCN: Well, it was written to be a popular song, not necessarily to be a good song, I guess…
CE: Yeah?

UCN: I read an interview with Dallas Davidson where he explained they noticed the kids in the clubs dancing to the R&B stuff as well as country songs, and they wanted to hook into that because they knew it would be popular. And that’s OK! At least they’re not saying ‘oh we wanted to write this really honest song.’ They’re not trying to bullshit anyone, they say ‘we wanted to write something we knew was going to be popular, so that’s what we did.’ OK, that’s fine.
CE: Sure. It’s such a different approach to writing though. For me to do that, I’d have to write for the right person. They’d have to at least get what I do and what my strengths are. I know I could write hit songs. I think ‘Words’ could be a Blake Shelton song. But it’s not that way because I thought ‘How do I write for this market?’ I just wrote it the way I wanted to.

UCN: What makes a hit song a hit song? And I know that maybe there is no answer to this question…
CE: Yeah, maybe there isn’t. I think about this a lot. Or is it a hit before it actually has commercial success? I say yes, I’ve heard a lot of songs of which I think ‘That’s a hit song!’

UCN: Like most of what Chris Nathan has written in the last year… *smiles* I mean, ‘Don’t Give a Damn,’ ‘Baby Are You with Me?,’ those are hits. I don’t care if they’re not on the radio yet!
CE: Yes! And the one he wrote with Rick Huckaby.

UCN: ‘Sugarcane!’ *smiles*
CE: Yeah, that’s a hit! But I think there’s a difference between what’s like ‘a Clay Evans hit,’ and a hit song.

UCN: Oh, interesting. Explain.
CE: Well, like Jeffrey Steele is an artist, and he’s awesome. I’ve seen him play and he can jam out on Led Zeppelin tunes. But he’s got songs that are just hits; he doesn’t have to sing them, you know what I mean? *sings* ‘What hurts the most, is being so close…’

UCN: Have you seen him sing that one though? He breaks my heart…
CE: Yes, it’s incredible. OK, so that was a bad example really. What about… *sings* ‘I’ve got a brand new girlfriend, we went away for the weekend.’ I mean, you can be a hit songwriter, but sometimes I see that differently than your artistry. Like Darrell Scott, you know, he’s a hit songwriter and an artist.

UCN: Have you heard his new record, by the way?
CE: No…

UCN: It’s really amazing.
CE: Yes, I really need to hear it. Well, I’d like to be both. Obviously I’m an artist, but I’d also like to be a hit songwriter.

UCN: But then you still have that decision to make: are you going to write what you write and if people want to record it, great. Or are you going to write more commercially than you would to increase the chance of it being picked up?
CE: I would want to do it the first way. I want to feel comfortable with the songs I finish. Maybe it’s different if I am co-writing with someone whose style is totally different and I am more of an editor on it.

UCN: I recently heard another Jeffrey Steele cut, I can’t mention the song, but I really can’t listen to it. I asked his co-writer about it, and he goes ‘well, that’s one that’s going to be really popular and sell a million copies!’ And I thought if he had said ‘we just put that in there for laughs,’ that would be OK with me. But for someone to defend it a song by saying ‘It’s going to make us a lot of money’…
CE: It might not make listeners too excited though.

UCN: Yeah, but then ‘Country Girl,’ goes to #1 and everyone’s dancing to it, because they don’t care about the lyrics.
CE: So what does that mean? What does that say about the country music fans?

UCN: Well, you tell me! *laughs*
CE: Maybe not… *laughs*

UCN: See, I have songs that I just like to dance to but I know they’re silly. It’s not wrong to have those songs. But some people will defend that song as a good song, and I won’t stand for that. *smiles*
CE: Well, here’s what I think. I think the public would probably know what’s good, and it’s not that they’re being fooled, but it’s just that a lot of what is good isn’t marketed to them. They just never get to hear those songs.

UCN: Yes! This is a problem on corporate country radio where the DJs are often not allowed to play songs they personally like because of industry politics. The Program Directors, the gatekeepers, hold back so much material that the fans never even get to hear. So when fans tell me ‘out of all country songs this is my favorite,’ I’ll know at least 10 songs they’d probably like more but they don’t get a chance to hear them on the radio. And that’s my big problem with corporate country radio; they hold so much back.
CE: Yes! That’s true. It’s frustrating sometimes… And I know I might not be able to get it there, but I would love for, say, Brad Paisley to do ‘Words.’

UCN: Oh, Paisley would kill it on that song. If someone cut one of your songs, would you mind being re-written a little, like if they wanted to change a few things?
CE: I don’t think they’re going to cut it if they want to change too much. If it changes the nature of the song, they’d make themselves co-writers.

UCN: One of the songs Chris [Nathan] sang, ‘Happy,’ the writer told me it was supposed to be a sad song called ‘Happy,’ but when Chris sings it it’s inspiring. He doesn’t like that because he feels the basic idea is gone.
CE: Well, whoever is singing it should be comfortable with it. That other guy is not out playing it. You do have to choose songs wisely. That’s why I like artists like John Prine and Bob Dylan, because they can’t sell mediocre. It the song’s not awesome, it’s not going to work. I know a lot of artists who are talented enough to make stuff that’s not really great sound good. But I don’t think I run that risk… *smiles* I think my stuff has got to be pretty solid, or I won’t be able to pull it off.

UCN: Hence the material that’s on your record!
CE: Thank you! *smiles*

UCN: Thank you so much for your time! This was fun!
CE: Yes, it was, thanks!

 

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Liv Carter

Liv Carter

Liv is a career coach for creatives, and the people who work with them.
She holds several certificates from Berklee College of Music, and a certificate in Positive Psychology from UC Berkeley.
Her main influences are coffee, cats, and Alexander Hamilton.
Liv Carter

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