Songwriters Circle: Mary Hartman

12 years ago Liv Carter Comments Off on Songwriters Circle: Mary Hartman

 

The Songwriters Circle interviews are all about finding out what makes writers tick, about getting into their heads and gaining insight into what they do and why they do it. With songwriter Mary Hartman this was easily achieved as she shared openly about her experience trying to carve out a Nashville songwriter’s career. If you are anywhere near this town, go ‘like’ her facebook page to find out where she will be performing. After reading this interview, you will want to see just how much fun one of her writers’ rounds is!

UCN: Let’s start with an obvious question: when did you start writing songs?
Mary Hartman: I have always written poetry and when I was about 14 I got my first guitar. I was a nylon string classical guitar from Sears. I didn’t know any songs so I started writing. I guess it’s in the DNA. But what’s strange about that is that I grew up with eight brothers and one sister and I am the only one who’s musically inclined. So I told my mom, since they were all blond and I was dark, I said “I know it was the milk man, mom!” *laughs*

UCN: Maybe we should leave it at that… *laughs* Let’s move on. Do you remember the first song you completed?
MH: There’s two from when I was 14. One was called ‘Jimmy’. It was a rock ‘n’ roll song because I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit. The other one was more of a folk song called ‘Little Boy Blue.’ I remember them and probably could still play them today…but I wouldn’t! *laughs*

UCN: Those were the first songs you wrote, but what were the first you admitted to having written?
MH: One song people always remember is a song called ‘Savannah Jo’. My youngest daughter is adopted and I wrote it from the birth mother’s perspective. I don’t know why I did it that way.  But that’s one I get requests for.

UCN: When you started writing, was that just the point of view you found yourself taking?
MH: I don’t know why. When Marissa turned 18 she wanted to find out who her biological mother was and I helped her find her. I think it comes from, when we finally met up, when she came in there was just so much emotion in the room. I just took it in, watching her and looking at the photo albums. When I woke up and wrote that, it was 3 in the morning. I really felt for the biological mother but on the other hand really happy to raise Marissa since she was a baby. I think that’s where it came from.

UCN: Is that your normal process to write in the moment, even if it’s 3 am?
MH: My most creative times are in the morning when I wake up, or late at night. An idea might come to me and I have to get up and write it down. Usually it’s first thing. I was up at 8 am this morning, and I was writing. But I do write down ideas or they’ll disappear.

UCN: Someone brought up an interesting point in a previous interview. He said “if it’s a really good idea, it will stick.” I thought that was interesting as most writers I have met are notepad people.
MH: There have been times where I’ve had a good idea, then forgot but later remembered I had it. I’ll go “God, that was a good idea, but I don’t remember what it was!” *laughs* So, I can’t do that anymore, I have to put it on tape.

UCN: You talk as someone who writes alone. Do you co-write?
MH:  I am trying to expand that but I mostly write solo. I have co-written and some were great songs.

UCN: What is it like for you to get out of that comfort zone?
MH: Well, think about it, in this town someone might hear you one night and say ‘hey, I want to co-write’ and you don’t really know them. Next thing, you’re in this room with this stranger and you’re supposed to come up with this #1 hit. I know I come across really social on stage but I’m really kind of private. But I have been enjoying the co-writing I’m doing these days and I know these folks. So I’m trying to expand that.

UCN: I have sat in on writing sessions and it’s amazing how they’re literally strangers at 10.30 am, and then someone says something like “why don’t we write about that point in a relationship when…” and they start sharing these really personal stories. And I’m sitting there thinking “how are you doing this?!” But I guess it’s what it takes; you throw your emotions on the table like that.
MH: I know, isn’t it crazy? I just thought about this, it’s almost like being in a bar, having a few drinks and opening up your whole life to the bartender.

UCN: But with the difference that you might never see the bartender again.
MH: I know, but your co-writers will know things about you. And then it’ll be all over town! *laughs* You either got to have thick skin, or, you know…

UCN: You got to have thick skin as a writer?
MH: I think you do. There’s a few publishers that will let me send stuff but I haven’t knocked on doors as much as I should. This is such a journey for me. Even though I picked up a guitar at 14, I’m still really green because I kept walking away from it and coming back to it, then got married, had kids and finally came here just a few years ago. It’s been an enjoyable journey but you need to know that a lot of people are going to say no, or they’re not interested. But if you love it that much and it’s something that’s in you, you’re gonna just keep on knocking on those doors. I have seen so many people come and go already.

UCN: They gave up?
MH: Yeah, I’ve been here seven years now and I’m thinking about the next seven years. I never run out of ideas. These writers who have writer’s block, that doesn’t happen to me. There’s always something you can write about. I’ll hear a conversation, read something or see a movie, you know?

UCN: Do you actively look for an idea or wait to be struck by a phrase or emotion a character in a movie has?
MH: How it happens is that I’ll be watching a movie or I hear someone say something and think ‘oh my, that’s a hook.’ I might not write the song that day but I have a little book of ideas and I’ll write it in there. I was flipping through it the other day and there’s a lot in there but when am I going to get to it? Songs don’t fall out of the sky for me, they take me a while to finish. And it usually takes many re-edits. Maybe I over-think them but that’s how I tick.

UCN: I have talked to other writers before about the filing cabinet of ideas and emotions…
MH: *laughs* I’m just laughing because I have songs everywhere…

UCN: You literally have a filing cabinet?
MH: Well, they need to be filed. I need organization in my life! *laughs* They’re all over, I print them out and then I pile them up. There are pieces of paper everywhere.

UCN: If you tried to organize it, maybe it wouldn’t work for you, maybe this is just your way.
MH: If you saw my car, you’d know it’s my way! *laughs*

UCN: That sounds like my old car… So, you write from these moments but do you end up with fairly complete ideas for songs? When you have the hook does that then also come with a melody or even already and arrangement?
MH: Yes! That’s funny that you say that because lately what has happened is that I’ll hear it the way that I think it will be produced. Or I will hear a melody in my head, then sit down with the guitar and find the melody on there. It used to be that the melody would come after playing around on the guitar.

UCN: Do you get technical about it? Is it all syllable count and sentence structure and rhyming schemes?
MH: I am technical but it seems to come naturally. When I write the syllables tend to just sync up. And I do count. People sometimes asks me ‘but what about the creative process?’ but I believe you can write a song within the confines of a structure and still be able to say everything you want to say, have a kick-ass melody, and still have a great song that could go #1. You’ve heard me, you know you’ll hear verse-chorus-verse-chorus, and maybe at the end I’ll amp it up. So I guess I’m technical in a poetic way. *laughs*

UCN: Having a structure within which to work helps you complete a song?
MH: Yes, it does. I mix it up sometimes, but I will always come back to structure. When I hear a song, I want to be able to sing along, and I want other people too as well, like when I play ‘Thirteen Angels.’

UCN: Oh, I love that one. What’s that great first line again?
MH: *sings* ‘Oh, my daddy was a no-good gunslinging murdering death-row son-of-a-bitch.’

UCN: I love that! Where did that even come from, because I remember from the Blue Bird Café show that that’s not exactly the case?
MH: That night was so funny because everyone started laughing! It’s kind of tongue-in-cheek but at the end it does get serious.

UCN: Which is why I think it’s so well-written. They think they’re going to hear some funny honky-tonk song and then by halfway they’re almost in tears. It’s great to watch the crowd on that one.
MH: Well, my dad is alive and well; he’s 82 years old and he’s kicking!

UCN: And he hasn’t murdered anybody…
MH: He hasn’t, and he’s never been on Death Row, I just want to be clear on that! *laughs* You know where it came from? One night when I was writing I looked at a painting by my daughter, Ty, and I started counting the angels in it. And originally I only counted 11, so I wrote down ‘Eleven angels’. The next night I came back to that song and counted them again and saw there were 13.

UCN: And even saying ‘thirteen angels’ you can feel the rhythm in that.
MH: Yes, so it became ‘Thirteen Angels’ and I thought about it being an unlucky number. The first line took a couple of edits but I knew he was going to be on Death Row, and I knew the angels were going to be misfits. So I thought I have got to drive what the song is about in the very first line. That’s how it came about and it took off from there. It’s about redemption. And also, the relationship with my dad has been kind of rough. He’s a tough guy and very hard-working. He worked in the auto plant in Detroit and always provided for us. I love him very much but it’s always been tough.

UCN: But it still remains a made-up story. Is it easier to write a story where you can create characters, or a real story where you are accessing real emotions and writing about real people?
MH: They’re equal. It’s just however it comes out. You’ve written a little so you know that sometimes you have a line that may not be the whole truth, but you have to make a story that’s interesting to the listener. I have a song called ‘Imagine Us’. I’ve never been sailing but I could envision it in the context of the song

UCN: One thing I remember about your show at the Blue Bird was you introducing songs saying “this is a man song.”
MH: *laughs* I write a lot of those!

UCN: It’s interesting because I don’t think you’re going to find a male songwriter saying “I wrote this from the female perspective.”
MH: Yeah, because they’re too manly! *laughs*

UCN: Instead, at Douglas Corner Café, Joel [Shewmake] said about your song ‘All I Get is Friday Night’ that he wanted to write a song from the perspective of the guy in that story.
MH: He said that? That’s interesting.

UCN: Yes, and he should. But he wouldn’t write the female story. You could set that as a songwriters’ challenge.
MH: *leans into the microphone* Yeah, Joel, I challenge you to write a female song! *laughs*

UCN: Country music has been a boys’ club, it’s getting better, but is it because you still feel you have to write these songs if you’re going to get cuts?
MH: I don’t at all. I’m definitely writing for the Nashville market so maybe subconsciously that’s on my mind. A lot of my songs can be sung by a male or a female. But if something comes out as a male song, I don’t censor it, I write it like that.

UCN: Do you choose a perspective before the song, or does the song inform the perspective?
MH: The song comes first, and then I’ll build the story. It does change sometimes but usually I know where I am going with it.

UCN: Each song is a journey?
MH: Each song is a journey. I think God sends them to me and I just catch them. It’s still hard work, you know that. And I will spot it when a line stands out. I can have the song finished but I’ll still notice that line and it’s like it’s saying “you’re on the right track but you need to change me.” And then I have to fight the paper to make it fit.

UCN: And eventually the song wins?
MH: Eventually…the song wins! *laughs* What the song wants, the song gets.

UCN: There’s a lot of clever language in your material that I hadn’t noticed but I picked up on it now at Douglas Corner. I mean ‘Tammy Wynette, Tammy why not’ – I love that.
MH: *laughs* That’s right! I mean, the point of that song is that they don’t play sad country songs on the radio anymore. I finished that only about a month ago.

UCN: You say ‘finished’ so that’s it? You don’t tweak songs anymore?
MH: Usually they’re done. That night, I played ‘Little Red Tractor’ too, do you remember that one?

UCN: Yes, it was hilarious!
MH: I just can’t believe I forgot the lyrics! And I had the line written on my wrist! *laughs*

UCN: But the funniest thing was just where in the song you forgot the lines. You sang ‘and my grandmother said….oh shit” and everybody just collapsed! *laughs*
MH: *laughs* And you don’t know how hard I had practiced that! *laughs* I had changed that just the day before. That was one of those lines that stood out and needed changing. The song is in drop D and it’s different to what I usually do but I wanted to put it in this round. I had written the new line on my wrist but I still blew it and just went *throw up her hands * ‘oh shit!’ *laughs*

UCN: Things like that make songwriters’ night so great. That night was so much fun!
MH: Thank you! I’m glad, thank you! If somebody comes to one of my rounds, I want to guarantee they’re going to have a good time. My mom is turning 81 and I want to fly her out here to come see what I do. *pauses* Oh, I better write a mom song! *laughs*

UCN: I thought every country musician had at least one song about mama!
MH: I don’t have a mama song…

UCN: Well, you’ve already got a tractor song, now you need a mama song.
MH: *laughs* Yes!

UCN: And you got a dad-in-jail song and a cheatin’ song…
MH: And I got a drinkin’ song…

UCN: Really, Mary, you need a mama song. *laughs*
MH: We’ll work on that tonight, Liv! *laughs* But I’m not going to send her to Death Row though. *laughs* It’ll have to be a sweet mama song. Oh, you know, that’s what we’ll call it – ‘Sweet Mama.’

UCN: There’s a few more things to talk about. One thing that’s always good for a discussion is, does one write to create art, or to make money?
MH: That’s really interesting. I write for the pure joy and love of it, honestly. Do I want a publicity deal? Sure. I write because I love it, it’s a challenge for me, it’s creative and it’s work. But I write for the sheer joy of it. If that transfers into a deal, I’ll be showing up every day to write. I’m not in the upper echelons of some of the Music Row writers so I don’t work under that kind of pressure.

UCN: Do you think it would change your writing if you were?
MH: I hope not… I’ve been told that what I write is different and I don’t want to change the way I write.

UCN: It’s the issue of integrity. I guess you can surrender some of it and achieve success, but you’d always know that’s what you did.
MH: Well, you know, that’s interesting. As an independent artist, I would never surrender my integrity for whatever CD I might be writing for either. Writing for a publisher who’s pitching songs to artists, that’s a different story, but on a CD of my songs, it’s going to be about what I have to say.

UCN: Imagine you had a publishing deal and they tell you Reba is looking for songs. You’d then have to go away and think about the kind of song she sings, but also about what radio wants.
MH: Could I do it? Heck yeah! *laughs* I’d see it as a challenge. You want a mama song for Reba? Sure, I’ll go home and write it. In fact, I’d probably work better under a deadline for something like that.

UCN: How easy is it for you to hear criticism? A lot of material is personal to the writer so if someone comes along and says a particular line isn’t all that good, don’t you think ‘who are you to say that about my song?’
MH: I don’t send my songs off to be critiqued so it’s not happened to me in a while, but if I was writing for someone and they say ‘you know, could you say this a little differently, or a little better?’, sure, I’d go home and work on it. Again, I’d see it as a challenge.

UCN: What if it’s someone in the audience or a music critic?
MH: Oh that’s another story! *laughs*

UCN: You know I write song reviews. For example, in the one for the new The Band Perry single, I mentioned it’s too slow; the lyrics want more tempo. I often wonder how that sits with writers, but, for me, I have to be honest. If I just say about every song ‘it’s great’, then what’s the point?
MH: I totally agree with that! And I appreciate how honest your reviews are.

UCN: It’s really important to me but it’s the same trade-off. If I wrote for a big publication I’d get more money, but I might have to surrender honesty.
MH: I get that. I don’t have much but I wouldn’t trade it for a million dollars! If you have something you love that much, you have to make that your goal. I can’t work in an office, that’s nowhere near what I’m about.

UCN: I have worked around musicians for a long time and I really think there are the people with the creative brains and the people with the more organizational brain. And I see some musicians struggling with it all and I think ‘please surround yourself with people who can do that for you, so that you only have to think about your songs.’
MH: You’re exactly right, I agree. I wish I could have help with that. I can’t imagine being a manager or a marketing person. That’s not one of my strengths. I’m purely creative.

UCN: The first time I talk to someone, I always end with this: which saying or quote inspires you day to day?
MH: There’s two: “To thine own self be true,” and the second thing is…”Don’t let the bastards get you down!” Because you know what, if they can, they will! And I’m not saying always be positive, we’re songwriters after all, we write from a lot of sadness too, but just learn when to walk away and don’t let people get you down.

UCN: I like that a lot. Thank you so much for your time.
MH: Thank you for inviting me!

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Liv Carter

Liv Carter

Liv is a career coach for creatives, and the people who work with them.
She holds several certificates from Berklee College of Music, and a certificate in Positive Psychology from UC Berkeley.
Her main influences are coffee, cats, and Alexander Hamilton.
Liv Carter

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